Comments on: Hypocrescendo http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/ I write, therefore I drink tea Fri, 10 Dec 2010 21:11:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Ed http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-704 Ed Mon, 05 Feb 2007 14:10:24 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-704 Hey, don't lump the Flying Spaghetti Monster in with those false gods! Reed, this decision to "do comment" is already bearing gnarled, juicy, deformed, bitter fruit. Craig Brown once said of Chris Morris that everyone was left "spattered with his cold rage" - as if that was a bad thing. More please. Hey, don’t lump the Flying Spaghetti Monster in with those false gods!
Reed, this decision to “do comment” is already bearing gnarled, juicy, deformed, bitter fruit. Craig Brown once said of Chris Morris that everyone was left “spattered with his cold rage” – as if that was a bad thing. More please.

]]> By: Archie http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-631 Archie Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:38:32 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-631 I am becoming fed up with having other people's imaginary friends forced down my throat! Either Church and State are separate or they are one. But which church? Christian; Catholic, Protestant or Evangelical, Islam; Shi'ite, Sunni or Sufi, The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the church of Wicca. It is interesting how the Evangelicals in the USA are starting to look more and more like the Catholics. Me? I will continue to pour a libation to Gaia each solstice and equinox. Not so She will remember me, but so that I shall remember Her. For without Her, we are as dust upon her skin. I am becoming fed up with having other people’s imaginary friends forced down my throat! Either Church and State are separate or they are one. But which church? Christian; Catholic, Protestant or Evangelical, Islam; Shi’ite, Sunni or Sufi, The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the church of Wicca.
It is interesting how the Evangelicals in the USA are starting to look more and more like the Catholics.
Me? I will continue to pour a libation to Gaia each solstice and equinox. Not so She will remember me, but so that I shall remember Her. For without Her, we are as dust upon her skin.

]]> By: healingmagichands http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-626 healingmagichands Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:48:19 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-626 Wonderful rant, Reed. Cogent, well-put. Convincing. Of course, you didn't have to convince me, I agree with you completely. Over here in the "grand ol' USofA" we are struggling with the concept of legislating morality. When does "Life" begin, at conception? Abortion is murder, they scream. Civilization as we know it will fall if homosexual couples are allowed to marry. Gaaaaa! For lack of a better world. Wonderful rant, Reed. Cogent, well-put. Convincing. Of course, you didn’t have to convince me, I agree with you completely.

Over here in the “grand ol’ USofA” we are struggling with the concept of legislating morality. When does “Life” begin, at conception? Abortion is murder, they scream. Civilization as we know it will fall if homosexual couples are allowed to marry. Gaaaaa! For lack of a better world.

]]> By: Reed http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-618 Reed Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:04:05 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-618 The thing that bothers me most about the Catholic stance on this, is not that they have particular beliefs (though I do find those beliefs silly and offensive), nor that therefore they have an issue of conscience versus the law on their hands as a result. It's the incomprehensible <i>hypocrisy</i> of their stance, or to be more precise, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor's stance on the issue. And that not many commentators seemed to have spotted it at the time of writing the above post. The whole conscience versus law thing is a minefield. It is obviously a noble thing to follow your conscience and resist the law in, say, Nazi Germany. It is an ignoble thing to follow your conscience and deny the law in toady's Britain, when your conscience urges you to discriminate against gay people. Neither law nor conscience is an infallible absolute guide. What, then, can we rely on? At which point in the discussion I not infrequently start weeping into my gin. The thing that bothers me most about the Catholic stance on this, is not that they have particular beliefs (though I do find those beliefs silly and offensive), nor that therefore they have an issue of conscience versus the law on their hands as a result. It’s the incomprehensible hypocrisy of their stance, or to be more precise, Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor’s stance on the issue. And that not many commentators seemed to have spotted it at the time of writing the above post.

The whole conscience versus law thing is a minefield. It is obviously a noble thing to follow your conscience and resist the law in, say, Nazi Germany. It is an ignoble thing to follow your conscience and deny the law in toady’s Britain, when your conscience urges you to discriminate against gay people. Neither law nor conscience is an infallible absolute guide. What, then, can we rely on?

At which point in the discussion I not infrequently start weeping into my gin.

]]> By: Sol http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-617 Sol Mon, 29 Jan 2007 08:08:07 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-617 Well, if the Catholic church is following the same line of thinking as the Anglican one, there's this splendid bit of sophism they use to get out of seeming to be unreasonable about the issue of sexuality which goes: it's not a sin to be gay, it's merely a sin to act on those, um, urges. Which _of course_ isn't a problem for a celebate preisthood. I have to say I could see why the government was going carefully over this - I felt it was a bit harsh for certain comentators (not you, Reed) to suggest that there wasn't a debate to be had. It's nothing to do with my own views on the subject, which are entirely supportive of the idea of gay couples adopting, by the way. Anyway, the debate I was thinking of was over the issue of what you do if two conflicting groups both want their rights protected - particularly when one of them is a religious group and the other one isn't. This is an issue which I can only see getting more urgent, but unfortunately after turning a few ideas around for a while, I realised I'm not interested enough in protecting the rights of any religious group to be able to think of any good arguments in favour. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the government is dithering because it can forsee a time when there's going to be an almighty dust up over religion versus the state beyond the workplace spats occurring now over the wearing of various all enveloping veils, and in typical fashion is wondering if there is possibly a way to make everyone happy. Course that does mean it gives more weight than is strictly necessary to the actual pants arguments used by the Catholic church, but there you go. Well, if the Catholic church is following the same line of thinking as the Anglican one, there’s this splendid bit of sophism they use to get out of seeming to be unreasonable about the issue of sexuality which goes: it’s not a sin to be gay, it’s merely a sin to act on those, um, urges. Which _of course_ isn’t a problem for a celebate preisthood.

I have to say I could see why the government
was going carefully over this – I felt it was a bit harsh for certain comentators (not you, Reed) to suggest that there wasn’t a debate to be had.

It’s nothing to do with my own views on the subject, which are entirely supportive of the idea of gay couples adopting, by the way.

Anyway, the debate I was thinking of was over the issue of what you do if two conflicting groups both want their rights protected – particularly when one of them is a religious group and the other one isn’t. This is an issue which I can only see getting more urgent, but unfortunately after turning a few ideas around for a while, I realised I’m not interested enough in protecting the rights of any religious group to be able to think of any good arguments in favour.

But I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the government is dithering because it can forsee a time when there’s going to be an almighty dust up over religion versus the state beyond the workplace spats occurring now over the wearing of various all enveloping veils, and in typical fashion is wondering if there is possibly a way to make everyone happy.

Course that does mean it gives more weight than is strictly necessary to the actual pants arguments used by the Catholic church, but there you go.

]]> By: Helen http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-614 Helen Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:53:15 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-614 You didn't scare me away, Reed. I've just had my head up my bum for a few days, recovering from the redraft. I'm an old left-footer too (how I love to slip that expression into conversation) and I'm not even exactly lapsed. I do intend to go to mass on a Sunday only it can be very exhausting with a small frenzied lemming in tow who is hellbent on crawling through the pews and flinging himself at the priest. So most weeks I cop out. But I cannot stand this kind of prejudiced hypocritical bollocks. It makes me so angry. It is not just the Catholic Church's nonsensical, two-faced rubbish but the attitude of any heterosexual person who presumes to tell a gay person what they can and can't do, what their rights are and how they should live their lives. What makes the heterosexual person superior? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr! And, if we did an honest headcount, how many priests would be gay? None of them, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Conner? Oh, OK. You didn’t scare me away, Reed. I’ve just had my head up my bum for a few days, recovering from the redraft.

I’m an old left-footer too (how I love to slip that expression into conversation) and I’m not even exactly lapsed. I do intend to go to mass on a Sunday only it can be very exhausting with a small frenzied lemming in tow who is hellbent on crawling through the pews and flinging himself at the priest. So most weeks I cop out.

But I cannot stand this kind of prejudiced hypocritical bollocks. It makes me so angry. It is not just the Catholic Church’s nonsensical, two-faced rubbish but the attitude of any heterosexual person who presumes to tell a gay person what they can and can’t do, what their rights are and how they should live their lives. What makes the heterosexual person superior? Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

And, if we did an honest headcount, how many priests would be gay? None of them, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Conner? Oh, OK.

]]> By: Dee http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-612 Dee Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:12:38 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-612 To hell with them all...........I wonder where their "rights of conscience......." dictum was when they covered up all the pedophilia among priests! My blood is boiling......Dee To hell with them all………..I wonder where their “rights of conscience…….” dictum was when they covered up all the pedophilia among priests! My blood is boiling……Dee

]]> By: Aphra Behn http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-610 Aphra Behn Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:47:16 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-610 >> “The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.” On t'other hand, glorifying terrorism is a crime. I didn't know you'd been raised a left-footer, Kelli. Oh, and the C0fE, having finally decided they have an opinion on this one, have the wrong one. B >> “The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.”

On t’other hand, glorifying terrorism is a crime.

I didn’t know you’d been raised a left-footer, Kelli.

Oh, and the C0fE, having finally decided they have an opinion on this one, have the wrong one.

B

]]> By: Kelli http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-609 Kelli Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:52:59 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-609 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6293875.stm Just in case you missed the CofE in all this. I find this statement particularly strange: "The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning." My religion tells me I must burn christians - it is a matter of conscience for me, but the law of the land says I'm not allowed to. I can ignore that law though right? Because "The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning." Bleurgh. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6293875.stm

Just in case you missed the CofE in all this. I find this statement particularly strange:
“The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.”

My religion tells me I must burn christians – it is a matter of conscience for me, but the law of the land says I’m not allowed to. I can ignore that law though right? Because “The rights of conscience cannot be made subject to legislation, however well meaning.”

Bleurgh.

]]> By: Kelli http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/comment-page-1/#comment-608 Kelli Fri, 26 Jan 2007 09:28:40 +0000 http://www.out-of-ideas.com/2007/01/24/hypocrescendo/#comment-608 *another lapsed catholic nods along to the rant* I lapsed before I was really aware there was any such thing as homosexuality - it was some of the many other hypocritical aspects and the telling small children that they were inherently wicked that caused the scales to fall from my eyes. Had it not, I'd be storming out of the church shouting now. The govt response is irritating me too. St Tone (flirting with converting since 1998) is equivocating, and has asked Ruth Kelly to find a compromise. Ruth Kelly. Opus Dei-affiliated Ruth Kelly? Shurely shome mishtake? Why do we *need* a compromise? If they are allowed to ignore laws on the grounds of what their imaginary friend tells them, can I go to my nearest catholic church, steal stuff and use as my defence that *my* imaginary friend tells me I have to steal things from catholics? *another lapsed catholic nods along to the rant*

I lapsed before I was really aware there was any such thing as homosexuality – it was some of the many other hypocritical aspects and the telling small children that they were inherently wicked that caused the scales to fall from my eyes. Had it not, I’d be storming out of the church shouting now.

The govt response is irritating me too. St Tone (flirting with converting since 1998) is equivocating, and has asked Ruth Kelly to find a compromise. Ruth Kelly. Opus Dei-affiliated Ruth Kelly? Shurely shome mishtake?

Why do we *need* a compromise? If they are allowed to ignore laws on the grounds of what their imaginary friend tells them, can I go to my nearest catholic church, steal stuff and use as my defence that *my* imaginary friend tells me I have to steal things from catholics?

]]>